MMORPG.com speaks with Bioware's MMO division

[Monster]

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?l ... 654&bhcp=1

Richard Vogel (who was Senior Producer of UO) had a heart-warming quote: "[MMORPGs are] too MUD driven". This is something I've been saying ever since EQ came out. I'm really excited that he's on the team and saying things like this to boot. I think there's a good chance that whatever Bioware releases is going to be the best MMO since UO (the original UO, not the watered-down pansy version). Then again, he also said MMO's are too hardcore, and the original UO was about as hardcore as you can get in an MMO. There has never been an MMO as ruthless as that. But as long as their game leaves out the stupid MUD model, I'll probably be happy.

I have no idea what he means by "MMOs publish people way too much". Anyone know what that's supposed to mean?

[Hado]

I'm interested because it's from Bioware. This is also the guy that was involved in the Baldur's Gate series, which was simply RPG perfection. There are very few companies that have perfect track records (Blizz being the only other company).

+ He loved UO year 1.
+ He likes DAOC's RvR and PVP combat.

- Thinks games are too hardcore.
- Considering making the game compatible with the three consoles. That usually means total dumbing down of gameplay, and "streamlining" the interface and everything else for the average moron.

What does he mean by MMO's are too MUDlike? What would they be, ideally?

[DarkViruz]

After WarCraft 1 every blizzard game has been a failure.

That said, it sounds like Bioware might bring out a fun MMO for a change.

[Monster]

Well yeah, I was originally excited about it because it's Bioware,. But now I'm even more excited about it.

MMO's are too mudlike because EQ was barely more than a graphical MUD, and MMO's just followed the EQ model after that, basically staying MUD-like. For instance, the whole "con" thing is from MUDs. I've said it before, I think that levels in an MMORPG is a bad idea. It presents a schism once someone gets higher level than their friends, preventing them from playing together because there's just no point. Skill based is much better as there is no such thing as experience points, so adventuring with your friends will make much more sense as long as you are good enough to stay alive and contribute in some way. The whole artificial difficulty associated with levels and "con" is stupid. If a creature is orange, he's harder to hit and do damage to, and you take more damage from him. Suddenly you level up and can hit him easier and do more damage just because he's yellow. It's an artificial system and I've always hated it.

In UO you learned how badass something was through experience and common sense. A giant rat was always the same power, and you knew a lich was always a risk to fight (even for a 7X GM). In these MUD type games, you have recycling enemies, so there will be a level 2 rat, a level 20 rat, a level 40 rat, etc. How does it make sense that you can kill a goblin at level 10, when there are higher level goblins that are functionally identical at level 40 that would take a whole army of level 10 players to kill? What the hell makes that goblin so tough, other than some numbers? It's unrealistic and ridiculous. You should be fighting goblins when your character is not as advanced and then graduating to orcs, then ogres, trolls, etc. Not wasting a level 20 giant then later getting killed by a level 30 goblin who doesn't even come up to your waist. This is something that Bioware understands well.

I'm not saying Bioware will be making a skill-based game, though there is hope for that since Rich Vogel is involved. But I'm sure they'll be avoiding many of the lame pitfalls that most MMORPG's contain.

[Wynn]

Level 40 rats are not beacuse of the game style, it's because they recycle the models to save money. Any game design will run into the same issue until they have unlimited resources for art (never) or something like the Spore morphing technology that can make realistic creatures out of a random collection of parts.

The rest of what you say, I generally agree with. However, even if you do away with levels and experience, you still need clear, measurable achievements. See the experience bar and levelling up makes you feel like you are making progress on what is a major time sink and tedium. It is a proven model that is highly addictive. Without it, you still need something. A good portion of the customer base loses interest after they reach the max level because they think there's nothing more to strive for. Slogging it out for reputation or items isn't as fun for them. Obviously there are other designs that can work. Just saying you need something to fill that gap.

[Hado]

I always thought skill based was equivalent to level based measurement of progress. To me, it's just a different type of tgrind. Actually, I prefer level based progress over skill based. Raising shit like lockpicking and poisoning in UO was plain tedious, and there was no good way to raise it through "normal" progression of gameplay, like exploring and killing a ton of stuff.
You pretty much have to resort to UO assist / macros / 3rd party programs, unless you want to sit at the computer doing the same repetitive motion for a year. Lame.

What I loved about the original UO was the freeform PVP and open, dynamic gameworld. Man someone crazy shit went down those days, with murderers that could loot all your stuff, invisible bank robbers, home invasions, bounty hunters, leaving poisoned food out on the road (lol), stealing some guy's magic scroll and pk'ing Richard Garriot with it at a public event.. all of those things are what made the game great. The interface and skill grind was still horrible though, imo.

[Monster]

Just because UO's skill system was broken doesn't mean it isn't a viable system. It's stupid to design a system where it's better to macro than to play. A combination of level/skill based would be good as well, with levels possibly being responsible for health/mana or some other thing, but in no way should level affect largely whether you can hit something. That's just ridiculous. Stats and equipment should be the biggest deciding factor (or player skill, or in a skill-based system, weapon skill).

Also, there's no excuse in a game as huge (both in popularity and size) as WoW to have recycled models, especially as many as it does (though I suspect part of the reason is because they just took the enemies out of WC3, which of course is going to have a smaller amount of enemies). Recycling models is one of the huge things that sucks the immersion out of the game and makes me feel like I'm fighting a computer-controlled "MOB" instead of a living creature. When you have a system that is not based on the MUD model, there's no reason to recycle creatures because you don't need to have a level 40 goblin, a level 30 goblin, and so on, you just have goblins and everyone knows that's something a newer character fights. If you have a game based on D&D, you only have 20 or so levels so there's also no need to recycle creatures. However, in that case you are either going to level too fast or not fast enough (as far as MMORPG's are concerned) so that's not a good solution for an MMO. When you don't have "con" at all, it would be stupid to recycle models, because no one would know what they can or can't kill. Is that rat going to waste me? I don't know! Recycling monsters is a MUD staple. It's an inherent part of the model. The model itself enables the developer to do it.

Another part of the MUD model is how the "MOBs" act. There is no real AI, just calculations done based on how much damage this guy has done or how much healing that guy has done. The monsters just don't behave realistically, and you can predict how they will act and who they will attack in most situations. I've also always hated how everything can run as fast as you can. There could be an enemy 2 inches tall and he'd still run as fast as a lion, for instance.

Another peeve I have is "balance". These games try so hard to balance that all realism is thrown out the window. For instance, in Wow, if you try to hit something that can't reach you, it automatically misses. Retarded. If you want to make the game realistic, just make the target run away! In real life, if you're attacking something that cannot reach you, it's not going to run in place and keep trying to get to you. It's going to run away.

[Stix]

Also, there's no excuse in a game as huge (both in popularity and size) as WoW to have recycled models, especially as many as it does (though I suspect part of the reason is because they just took the enemies out of WC3, which of course is going to have a smaller amount of enemies).

Most guild chats have running jokes about recycled models, but there has been an increasing amount of unique models for raid bosses. When raiding content was still new, you only had Onyxia, Ragnaros and Gandling with models that weren't shared with any other mobs. Since then, they've added a lot more, but it's pretty exclusive to raid bosses, unfortunately.

I don't think most people that still play WoW really care. Me? I care only mildly. As long as there are some unique models, I don't mind the scope. What I care most about these days is the level of puzzle-solving that goes into PvE content, particularly raid content. I wish I could say the same for soloable and 5-man content, but I currently can't (though the encounters added with the 0.5 dungeon sets have stepped up the complexity of 5 and 10-man encounters). Essentially, however, the enjoyment I get comes mostly from how the encounters work. My favorite encounter in the game, in fact, is Sartura and that's based on how the encounter works, rather than on how the mob looks (Sartura's model is one of three bosses in TAQ that shares a model with "regular mobs," while the rest have boss-specific and unique models).

For raid content, it's all about dealing with and figuring out how to react to specific mob abilities. Once you can predict their behavior and have how you are going to react in mind, it then mostly comes down to execution. And that's what a lot of people enjoy.

Then there are people who enjoy the more mundane MUD-like portions of the game, such as levelling, gearing and simple statistical increases (including reputation grinds). I have a friend who does nothing but grind reputation on her character. And I have another friend who enjoys levelling from 1 to 60 repeatedly. To each his or her own, I guess.